Comments on William W. Birch: The Love of God

Fred, As I mentioned previously, the quotations y...

2012-02-06T17:01:39.214-05:00

Fred,

As I mentioned previously, the quotations you used were not speaking of God's unconditional love for sinners but were speaking of God's acts in salvation. Therefore your quotes were useless and not properly contextual.

I don't know what to say about Muller because I haven't read all of his works or theology on God's love as an attribute, nor do I have any context for the quote you offered. But the other quotes you referred to were not addressing God's love as an attribute but about God's offer and work of salvation.

In my very second reply, I stated that God's offer of salvation is to all.

Fred, I am not talking about salvation or God's offer of salvation. This post is about God's love as an attribute, and that His love for sinners is unconditional in nature. This is where you are completely off topic. If you cannot remain on topic, then you need to stop commenting. Stick to the subject. The subject is God's love as an attribute, not to whom God offers salvation.

Here's a further demonstration of how you got off track: The love of God offered to man is unconditional, that is offered to all and without merit on their part, but man must receive it." That is usually called a universal offer, not unconditional love. If you wish to use the term "unconditional love" for the universal offer or for the teaching of universal atonement, that is your choice.

In this post above, I am not talking about an offer. I am not in any way whatsoever talking about an offer. That is something you conjured up in your own mind while reading my post. But, again, I am not talking about God's offer of love or His offer of salvation. I am merely stating that love is an attribute of God, and that He, very, very simply stated, loves sinners unconditionally. How you have created all this confusion is, truly, beyond me.

I think you need to stop. You're only confusing the situation and frustrating the conversation.

God bless.

I cannot see where I am going off track. You cited...

2012-02-06T16:30:04.583-05:00

I cannot see where I am going off track. You cited one theologian, Timothy George, to support your notion of unconditional love. Then you stated that he was talking about the attribute of God's love. I cited Muller's work as someone who in my opinion uses precision in theological language, and who does not use the term "unconditional love" when he talks about the attribute of God's love. This was true for the other citations I gave, such as Olson and Picirilli. I then searched my library, but found no examples from Berkhof, A.A. Hodges, and Charnock for the usage of unconditional love.

In my very second reply, I stated that God's offer of salvation is to all. Here is what I said: "The love of God offered to man is unconditional, that is offered to all and without merit on their part, but man must receive it." That is usually called a universal offer, not unconditional love. If you wish to use the term "unconditional love" for the universal offer or for the teaching of universal atonment, that is your choice. You are free to do so, and I will not as I have not charged you with any Scriptural heresy. But from where I sit, it is imprecise and requires further qualification in order to come up to the level of classic Protestant theology.

I made no such condition. God loves sinners uncond...

2012-02-06T15:03:55.419-05:00

I made no such condition. God loves sinners unconditionally whether or not they actually receive that love -- whether His love is expressed in the salvation of the soul through faith in Christ or in a very general sense. I don't have anything both ways.

I'm not trying to separate the notion of God's love from its manifestation in salvation. But salvation was not the topic of this post; God's love as an attribute is the topic. You are the one who moved the entire post and conversation in this vein, and it was wrong to do so.

Again, I am at a loss at to what this has to do wi...

2012-02-06T15:01:30.760-05:00

Again, I am at a loss at to what this has to do with God's unconditional love for sinners. You're moving way off track here.

Do you believe God loves all sinners? If so, why? If not, why? If there is a condition to God loving sinners, then what is that condition?

Let's just stick to these very simple questions and answers in order to advance to some semblance of clarity.

William, you apparently took my statement the wron...

2012-02-06T15:00:39.913-05:00

William, you apparently took my statement the wrong way. I was merely pointing out that you placed a condition for the reception of God's love while at the same time you were also claiming that His love was unconditional. You cannot have it both ways. You have also tried to separate the notion of God's love from its manifestation in salvation. As I try to point out below, salvation for sinners is part of God's love.

Here is an example of a major contemporary histori...

2012-02-06T14:50:49.464-05:00

Here is an example of a major contemporary historical theologian that does a nice job in talking about God’s love ― Richard Muller in his Dictionary of Latin and Greek Theological Terms, Drawn Principally from Protestant Scholastic Theology, pp. 31-32. In summary, he talks about God’s love as a communication of His goodness to His creatures. This is expressed both intrinsically and extrinsically, that is the willing of the good and then the kindness demonstrated. He further breaks down God’s love as amor Dei universalis which is shown in the governance and preservation of the world. The amor communis is directed at both the elect and the reprobate and is manifest in the blessings of God. Then there is the amor Dei specialis directed only toward the elect or believers in the gift of salvation.

I am not clear as to how one can see the notion of unconditional love fitting into the above statement. Following Muller’s definition, it appears to me that it is also not so easy to separate salvation from the expression of God’s love. I see that he allows both Arminians and Calvinists to fit in, as Arminius identified the elect as those who believe.

If we turn to Muller’s definition of God’s wrath or ira on p. 160, he differentiates it as a function of God’s righteousness from its manifestation in the death of Christ that fully satisfies God’s justice. In his definition, he talks not only about its relation to human sin, but also that “it is ultimately expressed in the damnation of those who do not have faith in Christ.” Like you, William, I can see God’s atonement for sinners as being universal, but those who reject it do not see punishment for their sin only but for themselves as willing creatures (John 3:36).

Fred, And I would also hope and pray that you do ...

2012-02-06T14:42:24.587-05:00

Fred,

And I would also hope and pray that you do not take these replies personally, because I certainly hold nothing against you personally. God bless.

Fred, Timothy George is only one among many, many...

2012-02-06T13:51:51.450-05:00

Fred,

Timothy George is only one among many, many theologians who use the biblical truth of God's unconditional love for sinners. I only gave you one example. The truth of God's unconditional love is not a pop slogan but is used in theology text books.

But if God's basic love for sinners is conditioned upon anything in us for God then you can just throw out all that the Bible teaches on the love of God.

The Universalistic charge came from your first paragraph: The first paragraph of your above reply contains a condition. God's love is offered, but if it is rejected, then in your words -- He will "hold us accountable for our sin, and punish us for our sin if we reject sin's only remedy: faith in Jesus Christ." Would you consider the rejection of God's unconditional love to have no effect, as would Universalists -- that they would be saved just the same?

I don't mean to be "aggressive," necessarily, but I think your view is not merely unbiblical but is against Scripture, is anti-scriptural.

God bless.

You are an aggressive poster, but I mean you no ha...

2012-02-06T13:20:26.263-05:00

You are an aggressive poster, but I mean you no harm William. As I have stated, there is no mention in any of my theologies of God's conditional or unconditional love. The term "unconditional love" is a pop slogan, non-specific. If Timothy George wants to use the term, he is as a Calvinist the first to do so. I checked Berkhof and Charnock on their treatments of God's attribute, there is no mention of unconditional love.

What in my replies indicates to you that I am a universalist? The only comment I made in that direction is that if unconditional love is not qualified it can sound like universalism. No guilt felt at this end.

P.S. Not one of your quotes stated that God's ...

2012-02-06T09:52:13.480-05:00

P.S. Not one of your quotes stated that God's love for sinners was conditional. I'm still waiting for a quote. Could you please show us at least one example of an orthodox Protestant who writes that God's love for sinners is conditional?

Fred, Are we talking about two entirely different...

2012-02-06T09:23:27.647-05:00

Fred,

Are we talking about two entirely different subjects at the same time? I'm not connecting God's unconditional love for sinners to salvation. Are you? If you are, then you are completely off the topic of this post.

All the quotes you gave relate to God's activity in salvation. That was not AT ALL what I was suggesting in this post. If we're not on the right track, then this entire dialogue was for nothing.

BTW, your first paragraph leads me to believe that you're a Universalist. Are you?

Timothy George was speaking of God's love as an attribute -- His unconditional love for mankind -- not connected merely with salvation.

The first paragraph of your above reply contains a...

2012-02-06T02:06:46.518-05:00

The first paragraph of your above reply contains a condition. God's love is offered, but if it is rejected, then in your words -- He will "hold us accountable for our sin, and punish us for our sin if we reject sin's only remedy: faith in Jesus Christ."

I believe brother Timothy George is a Calvinist, and in the citation you gave, it sounds like he is talking about irresistible grace, not unconditional love. Moreover, he is talking about God's covenant love for his people. This frames a discussion about the elect and does not really speak to the issue, in my opinion, for unconditional love seems to be talking about God's general love for all humanity. Please recall that I began in my first reply to your post, that it is my opinion that we not use this term in an "unqualified" manner.

So, here are a few citations of major theologians who use the word "condition" in the context of salvation. Millard Erickson in his Christian Theology, p. 355 says: "One might say therefore that in the Arminian view this aspect of God's plan is conditional upon human decision; in the Calvinistic view, on the other hand, God's plan is unconditional."

Robert Picirilli in Grace, Faith, Free will, has an entire chapter titled "Arminianism and Conditional Perseverance," pp. 197-208. On p. 203, he gives a summary statement: "All this means simply, from the Arminian perspective, that one's possession of salvation is, at any time conditioned on faith."

Roger Olson in his Arminian Theology writes on p. 19: "they [Arminians] embrace conditional predestination based on God's foreknowledge of who will freely respond positively to God's gracious offer of salvation..."

In Calvinism, we know that God saves only those who are sovereignly chosen. This is what Calvinists call unconditional election, referenced by Erickson above in the notion that foreseen faith is not a condition for the choosing of the elect. Yet in this notion of unconditional election we by no means arrive at unconditional love, as all are not elected.

Going through the indices of these theologians, as well as others, such as Strong, Buswell, Calvin, Berkhof, A.A. Hodge and the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, I found no entries for either conditional or unconditional love. Both terms are in my opinion imprecise when it comes to theological language. The notion of condition comes up only when one is speaking of a condition for salvation or perseverance or immortality or election.

Fred, God's wrath is against sin. He...

2012-02-04T21:19:20.354-05:00

Fred,

God's wrath is against sin. He unconditionally loves sinful, fallen creatures created in His image; it's what motivated Him to send His only Son to be their Savior (John 3:16). He is able to love fallen sinners unconditionally -- stated explicitly at John 3:16, the most famous verse in all of Scripture -- and hold us accountable for our sin, and punish us for our sin if we reject sin's only remedy: faith in Jesus Christ.

I don't know of any orthodox Protestant theologian who does NOT write about the unconditional love of God. Typically, only heretics write about God's conditional love for mankind. In other words, such heretics think that you have to earn God's love in order to be saved, either by being good, or doing good. That's Roman Catholic heresy. God's love for sinners is unconditional. How else do you read John 3:16?

There are many, many Protestant theologians I could quote to state the orthodox case for God's unconditional love for sinful mankind. For example, Timothy George writes, "God's covenant love for his people echoes throughout the Psalms and the prophets. God's unconditional and never-failing love is illustrated in the example of the Prophet Hosea, who refused to forsake his wayward and adulterous wife Gomer but went after her, calling and wooing her back into the sacred marriage relationship. So it is with God's overcoming grace and love for his people" ("The Doctrine of God," in A Theology for the Church, ed. Daniel L. Akin, 227)

I'd like for you to now cite a major, orthodox Protestant theologian in print who holds to God's conditional love for sinful mankind.

God bless.

Thanks William for all that you do here on your bl...

2012-02-04T19:55:24.209-05:00

Thanks William for all that you do here on your blog. Now getting back to the subject of God's unconditional love, if God loves us unconditionally, how do we understand that the wrath of God abides on those who do not believe? Also, do you know of any Protestant theologian who writes about the unconditional love of God? From my experience, I see the term of "God's unconditional love" bantered about more by popular theology than by academic theologians. In fact, the first time I heard it used was in the 90s by a Christian psychologist. It rather took me back as it sounded like universalism. Protestant theologians usually talk about unmerited grace or love, responsive love, universal atonement coupled with particular redemption, but not unconditional love. Correct me if I am wrong. I would like to see a citation from a major theologian in print. Thanks.

Well, God is the one who saves (i.e., regenerates)...

2012-02-04T08:26:51.120-05:00

Well, God is the one who saves (i.e., regenerates), and we do not contribute synergistically to it; we merely respond with faith in Christ and then God saves us. So, no, I would reject a synergistic model of salvation, since we cannot help God regenerate and save us.

If I'm reading you correctly, however, in a rejection of irresistible grace, then I'm in agreement with you, of course.

Can we have a true synergistic model of salvation ...

2012-02-04T01:18:41.543-05:00

Can we have a true synergistic model of salvation where there are no conditions?

What do we do with John 3:36, where it says that t...

2012-02-04T01:17:13.975-05:00

What do we do with John 3:36, where it says that the "wrath of God abides on those that believe not?" Does an unqualified proclamation of God's unconditional love for sinners give the full picture of relationship between God and unsaved mankind?

I'll pass on Olson, thanks. I agree with what ...

2012-02-02T17:23:32.977-05:00

I'll pass on Olson, thanks. I agree with what you just wrote, but I'm still puzzled by your initial comment. What, exactly, did it have to do with the post? All non-Calvinists are agreed that man must accept or receive God's offer of salvation by grace through faith in Christ. But what does that have to do with God's love for mankind being unconditional?

The love of God offered to man is unconditional, t...

2012-02-02T17:20:03.213-05:00

The love of God offered to man is unconditional, that is offered to all and without merit on their part, but man must receive it. That is the condition for salvation. The message of this synergism is presented by Roger Olson at his blog located at this link:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2010/08/what-is-an-arminian/

Fred, I disagree. God loved us before we had fait...

2012-02-02T08:08:25.776-05:00

Fred,

I disagree. God loved us before we had faith; that's why He sent His Son into the world, so that we might be saved (John 3:16). So, how can God's love be conditioned upon our faith in Christ when He loved us prior to us having faith in Christ?

I am not sure that I am comfortable with an unqual...

2012-02-02T02:24:18.485-05:00

I am not sure that I am comfortable with an unqualified "God's unconditional love." Yes, God will accept any sinner that genuinely repents and trusts in Christ. But when we trust God, is that something we don't "do"? God's grace is conditioned upon faith, which also implies a lifestyle that demonstrates faithfulness. This is something that we do. The key for me is to see our faith and life of faith as something that does not merit God's salvation. Without faith, we cannot come to God, and so His salvation offer is conditioned on that. Otherwise, the wrath of God abides on the sinner. The patience of God with an erring believer demonstrates itself in correction. The warning passages in the Bible against believers are there to provoke faithfulness. One who absolutely ignores them, in my opinion, will eventually no longer experience the love of God. So, for the believer, there is also the condition of obedience that is implicit in "hearing [shema]" and "faith" which results from hearing.

Dr. W., Thank you! You're right: our culture ...

2012-01-30T09:59:17.154-05:00

Dr. W.,

Thank you! You're right: our culture has a works-based notion of "If I do A and B then God will do C and D," but they've missed it entirely. First, become one of His children by grace through faith in Christ. Second, your relationship with God will shift your paradigm, and you won't try to earn His love and favor, but will have it by your union with Christ Jesus. (Still, I even know believers who struggle with this. )

" If we ground our identity in the unchanging...

2012-01-30T09:57:18.434-05:00

" If we ground our identity in the unchanging, immutable LOVE of God, then we will have a proper understanding of ourselves in relation to Him and His creation."

Systematic theology in a sentence!

Sjoerd, Thank you, brother! That's encouragin...

2012-01-30T09:56:35.303-05:00

Sjoerd,

Thank you, brother! That's encouraging!

WBB - I "love" this statement you made, ...

2012-01-30T09:53:45.565-05:00

WBB - I "love" this statement you made, "But His love for me is not conditioned upon anything that I may (or may not) do." So many in our modern, selfish society don't grasp that truth. There is NOTHING I can do to make God love me more and NOTHING I can do to make God love me less. If we ground our identity in the unchanging, immutable LOVE of God, then we will have a proper understanding of ourselves in relation to Him and His creation.

Rick said what I was gonna say about one of my favorite hymns. This is supported in scripture in the last verse of the Gospel of John: "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."