Comments on William W. Birch: Romans Catholics and Muslims in the Faith

According to the Roman Catholic chaplain at my uni...

2012-01-29T19:10:42.342-05:00

According to the Roman Catholic chaplain at my university, the Catechism is not an infallible absolute authority. That's helpful to know regarding this.

Wesley, Well, ain't you an encyclopedia of Ca...

2012-01-26T09:31:45.739-05:00

Wesley,

Well, ain't you an encyclopedia of Catholic knowledge!? lol Thanks for posting these, brothah man!

One last comment for now; I promise! ;-) Turretin...

2012-01-26T03:11:02.646-05:00

One last comment for now; I promise! ;-)

TurretinFan posted a great article on this topic in 2008 over at AOMin. He provides several unimpeachable quotations from the two most recent popes that confirm the teaching of Vatican II concerning Muslims (and also Jews). The article is relatively brief. It can be found here.

Here is one more passage from another ecumenical c...

2012-01-26T02:49:32.389-05:00

Here is one more passage from another ecumenical council, the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517), concerning the "Turks and other infidels." The Turks were the Muslim peoples of the thoroughly Islamic Ottoman Empire. During this ecumenical council the Christian empire in Europe addressed the threats of the Muslim Turks in the east and south. The passage speaks for itself:

"Our aim is also to crush the Turks and other infidels standing firm in the eastern and southern regions. They treat the way of true light and salvation with complete contempt and totally unyielding blindness; they attack the life-giving cross on which our Saviour willed to accept death so that by dying he might destroy death, and by the ineffable mystery of his most holy life he might restore life; and they make themselves hateful enemies of God and most bitter persecutors of the christian religion" (link).

Billy, Thanks for the mention in the article =] ...

2012-01-26T02:14:34.524-05:00

Billy,

Thanks for the mention in the article =]

The modern Roman Catholic Church has clearly denied its historic teaching on the destiny of those who do not reside within the unity of the church and profess the faith of the church. For the Roman Church to claim with any seriousness whatsoever that she has always taught with perfect harmony, unity and consistency the same doctrines since the beginning is absolutely preposterous.

Compare the following two passages:

At the Ecumenical Council of Basel (1431-1445), in Session 11 on February 4, 1442, the Roman Church officially declared:

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church" (link).

At the Second Ecumenical Vatican Council (1962-1965), in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, issued November 21, 1964, the Roman Church officially declared:

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience" (link).

Both of these passages are the declarations of ecumenical councils, declarations that are claimed to be infallible. Yet both declarations cannot be true. Either one of them or both must be false. What harmony is this? None whatsoever.

Thanks WWB for the clarification. I agree with you...

2012-01-25T14:13:53.551-05:00

Thanks WWB for the clarification. I agree with you that the RC statement goes way beyond measure. I do find it interesting that, at least in a few instances, God managed to slip within ancient pagan traditions the seeds of understanding the Gospel when it appeared.

Hey, and my middle name is Watson!!! Ha!

2012-01-25T13:54:04.525-05:00

Hey, and my middle name is Watson!!! Ha!

I completely agree. The Spirit has used me, which ...

2012-01-25T13:49:33.027-05:00

I completely agree. The Spirit has used me, which in my estimation, is much more difficult than using a donkey. I have long since ceased trying to make the Spirit conform to my expectations and parameters. How do we know that is was the Spirit?

Fruits my dear Dr. Watson. And just to piggy back on what WB shared about Sudduth. My theology (Heb.6 and 10) makes it possible that he commited apostasy. I deeply distrust that moniker "philosopher".

Let me pull a semantics: To say that God is capabl...

2012-01-25T13:20:13.465-05:00

Let me pull a semantics: To say that God is capable of "using" a false religion to set the stage for the Truth -- the Gospel -- is not exactly the same as admitting that "the world's false religions are a preparation for the Gospel," as though God foreordained them by necessity in order to prepare people for the Gospel.

I wonder how God would be using Hinduism, for example, as a preparation for Michael Sudduth, recent Calvinist Philosopher turned Hindu, where the Gospel is concerned. I'm not willing to go there.

Now, God is certainly capable of showing a person the falsities of a false religion as a preparation for him to receive the Gospel. But the wording of the Roman Catholic statement appears too necessitarian, as though God established false religions in order to prepare people for the Gospel. That is how I read it, and that is why I responded as I did.

It was not aimed directly at inclusivists, no. If ...

2012-01-25T13:14:01.252-05:00

It was not aimed directly at inclusivists, no. If they got "hit" along the way, oh my! ; )

Agreed!

2012-01-25T13:13:22.323-05:00

Agreed!

I believe God can use almost anything to set the s...

2012-01-25T12:57:49.091-05:00

I believe God can use almost anything to set the stage for the gospel. I went to the Broadway play called "Godspell" in 1975, written by an unbelieving Jew, and God used that to water make the gospel more clear.

WWB, I don't think we are in any substantial d...

2012-01-25T12:45:08.827-05:00

WWB,
I don't think we are in any substantial disagreement, but I would like to hear your take on Don Richardson's "Peace Child" or Bruce Olson's "Bruchko." It seems, according to these sources, that God can use false religion to set the stage for the Gospel.

I'm not sure if this post is directed at inclu...

2012-01-25T12:11:32.820-05:00

I'm not sure if this post is directed at inclusivists or not. If it is, you're conflating inclusivism with pluralism and universalism.

WB - Let us not leave out men like John Hagee who ...

2012-01-25T12:00:17.690-05:00

WB - Let us not leave out men like John Hagee who suggest that unbelieving Jews can be saved through the Mosaic Covenant.