tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post1917214939861284993..comments2012-02-05T21:37:50.406-05:00William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-3091085511813441382012-02-05T21:37:50.406-05:002012-02-05T21:37:50.406-05:00Phew! Glad to hear that! (That one was close!)<br /><br />P.S.: I think <a href="http://eastern-orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/10/martin-luther-on-faith-alone-and.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> would make a good addition to your post..Lvkahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-75619554325944339632012-02-05T18:29:59.823-05:002012-02-05T18:29:59.823-05:00I had never read that. Thanks for sharing. (And, no, haha.)William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-16005246044522372182012-02-05T17:39:39.526-05:002012-02-05T17:39:39.526-05:00Am I just being paranoid, or was this post aimed <b>directly</b> at <a href="http://eastern-orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2011/06/friend-wrote-my-autobiography-in-his.html" rel="nofollow">me</a>?Lvkahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-16494343210855788412012-02-02T17:20:29.936-05:002012-02-02T17:20:29.936-05:00The &quot;dunny,&quot; haha! I know I&#39;m not conversing with an American when I read a word like that! <br /><br />For people in such circumstances as you&#39;ve mentioned -- which I believe comprise comparatively <em>few</em>, and not &quot;many,&quot; as you wrote -- I would certainly think they may pray to and converse with the Lord in the midst of those circumstances, especially considering that many times they do not even realize they are experiencing those bodily functions during. <br /><br />For the rest of lazy-yet-too-busy Christians, however, I should think that the other 23 hours 45 minutes of the day when they are NOT on the toilet would be sufficient time to speak with God.William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-2878491316129758262012-02-02T16:11:11.232-05:002012-02-02T16:11:11.232-05:00Hi William. <br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. You are right that if God can only speak to someone on the toilet...there is something not right in their life of devotion. <br /><br />When I shat myself at church, well don&#39;t we consider the whole service part of worship and devotion? :) My point was more to do with how we live our lives despite the circumstances of our life. Within the framework of my condition and hospitalisation I was constantly crying out to God to help me get through it. <br /><br />Within the framework of your comment, you seemed to be mocking the idea of even praying to God while on the toilet! Why would you mock that idea? <br /><br />Why are you offended by the idea of talking to the Lord while on the toilet or Him actually talking to you on the toilet? <br />As for making love to my wife, I believe that is part of a married couples combined worship to the Lord. <br /><br />While I may not of addressed the gist of your post, and replied to your comment, your comment was a central part of your post and worthy replying to. <br /><br />As far as shatting and peeing. I go to Bible college with two other guys in wheel chairs. One is a lecturer. The other a student. They have no control over their bodily functions at all. Most of the time they are unaware of their smells and the fact they have soiled themselves. Within their framework of existence, they often pray, sing, sit in class and teach, preach while in the processes of messing themselves. <br /><br />While I will agree you were not even thinking of people who experience life in these contexts when you commented, the truth is, many do! And as someone who has had to work through the heartache of that public humiliation and come to terms with it, yes there are times when I will sit on the dunny and praise God and seek his face.craig bennetthttp://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-38628702630410804042012-02-02T15:57:41.868-05:002012-02-02T15:57:41.868-05:00Craig,<br /><br />First, I am not suggesting that Christ is not with us in the bathroom. What I took issue with is that while in the act of relieving oneself, that may not be the most appropriate time to seek the face of Christ in worship and devotion or Bible study.<br /><br />Second, I took issue with the woman&#39;s assumption that God &quot;spoke&quot; to her most when she was on the toilet, because that seemed to be the only time God could get her undivided attention. That&#39;s sad on a few levels, including the fact that her spiritual relationship with Him is so hindered by so many other things that God cannot &quot;get through to her&quot; except when on the toilet. That should have been her first clue that something was seriously wrong.<br /><br />Third, while you were enduring physical limitations and malfunctions, did you take that specific moment (i.e., wetting, shatting, etc.) to seek Christ&#39;s face in worship and devotion, or did you wait until all was better? I&#39;m guessing the latter: correct me if I&#39;m wrong. If what you&#39;re trying to imply is true, then you should have sought Christ&#39;s face in worship, prayer and devotion (and perhaps Bible study) while you were in the act of &quot;shatting,&quot; etc.<br /><br />Let&#39;s take it one step further: would you seek Christ&#39;s face in worship and devotion while making love to your wife? If not, why not?<br /><br />From your initial comment, I think you majored on the minor, and thereby missed the entire point of this post. I&#39;m not sure why you chose that route, but you did. I hope this is not a portrait of things to come.<br /><br />God bless.William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-69137881510632873232012-02-02T15:27:09.432-05:002012-02-02T15:27:09.432-05:00Thank you. :) Life often has a way of cutting across our systems of belief.craig bennetthttp://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-84015463846726697222012-02-02T15:24:42.133-05:002012-02-02T15:24:42.133-05:00Sorry to hear of your own health struggles and concerns Rick. <br /><br />Within the framework of the cross, I certainly don&#39;t want to imply that the cross wasn&#39;t about his shed blood. But the shedding of his blood includes the whole gamut of his undignified treatment. My observations come out research which shows what happened to people who were whipped and crucified...and what I mentioned was an integral part of it...craig bennetthttp://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-50603086729717633282012-02-02T14:36:50.194-05:002012-02-02T14:36:50.194-05:00Craig - Touché. Well-played brother.drwaymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17914024954991986479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-29587069164024687982012-02-02T14:34:09.274-05:002012-02-02T14:34:09.274-05:00Your personal observations are not irrelevant, but the things you suggested happened to Christ, if they did at all, were never the reason for the cross. Jesus did those things on a regular basis every day of His earthly life. The cross was about the blood.<br /><br />But I do acknowledge God&#39;s wonderful grace in your life!<br /><br />BTW - My own health issues keep me pretty well penned up at home as well. Three heart attacks and major league diabetes are perishing my outward man daily, however like you my inward man is renewed every day.Rick Fruehhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-65540292827906422032012-02-02T13:56:43.796-05:002012-02-02T13:56:43.796-05:00Why are my observations irrelevant. For me they were and are greatly relevant. A number of years ago I suffered paralysis on my right side. I spent some months in hospital and in a wheel chair. <br /><br />I have gone through the shame of having shat and peed myself in public, at church and elsewhere. And in the midst of my own pain and experience God showed me that Christ was with me no matter what. Now 4 years later, I have thrown away the walking stick and can use the bathroom at will. And I tell you, I freely thank God and worship him every time I do use the bathroom and I know he is there with me where ever I go.craig bennetthttp://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-8353750436001351862012-02-02T13:26:10.238-05:002012-02-02T13:26:10.238-05:00It&#39;s not that God is not with us in the bathroom. But we as humans are affected by our surroundings. Even Jesus separated Himself and scaled the mountain in search of a time of divine fellwship with the Father.<br /><br />I do believe that worship should be sacrificial and not part of a convenient &quot;kill tow birds with one stone&quot; time.<br /><br />As far as your assessment of Christ&#39;s physical sufferings on the cross, the Scriptures gives no revelation of the things you mentioned, and in fact, they are irrelevant.Rick Fruehhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-25435654869103781322012-02-02T12:46:37.384-05:002012-02-02T12:46:37.384-05:00William. <br /><br />If Christ shat and peed himself on the cross for all to see, why don&#39;t you think God can be with us while we are in the bathroom? Surely if God sees all we do, and is with us where ever we go, he is there in the bathroom with us?craig bennetthttp://craigbenno1.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-89144414282377253302012-02-02T09:33:31.433-05:002012-02-02T09:33:31.433-05:00Fantastic article, William! I&#39;m going to share this with my friends.<br /><br />- M. GiulianiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-63481535679801103702012-02-01T16:31:35.370-05:002012-02-01T16:31:35.370-05:00The most &quot;conservative&quot; churches in today&#39;s evangelical setting would have been considered antichrist in Jacob Arminius&#39; day. I have done extensive study in church history, however that must bow to the Scriptures, Nowhere in the New Testament does it give guidlines for music style or dress (except for modesty) or even that tattoos are sin.<br /><br />My oldest son has several religious tattoos, inlcuding Bible verses. He is a weight lifter and he has a wide ministry and witnesses more than any man I have ever known. He is active in missions and personally flew down to help several missionary families escape the Chavez regime out of his own pocket.<br /><br />And he has two masters in religious studies, and contrary to what many would surmise because of his appearance, he loves Ravenhill, Spurgeon, Tozer, and Jacob Arminius. He eshews all alcohol and tobacco, and I have seen him weep uncontrollably over the lost souls of men and women.<br /><br />Brother, appearances are not always what they seem.Rick Fruehhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-68190256114288227822012-02-01T16:13:20.967-05:002012-02-01T16:13:20.967-05:00Speaking of worship here is the worship of man.<br /><br />http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2012/02/bishop-eddie-long-and-spirit-of.html<br /><br />Behold, the Antichrist cometh.Rick Fruehhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-59049778630247687662012-02-01T14:54:42.909-05:002012-02-01T14:54:42.909-05:00Rick, <br /><br />You said &quot;I believe those things are irrelevant.&quot; and &quot;The exteriors are irrelevant.&quot;<br /><br />I beg to differ and, funny enough, the same New Evangelical theologians who would afirm your statements to their opposition where it concerns the church, will tell their opponents where it concerns their missions that we have to be relevant to the culture (they will hardly use the word &quot;world&quot; in this context) if we want to be succesful to reach the world with the Gospel (Tim Keller uses the term Gospel DNA. Google this and find out what it entails).<br /><br />Although I can follow their logic in a sense to reach the world in mission. The problem however is, once they come to Christ and enter into a christian culture that ought to be different than the world in EVERY aspect of this life, they would feel (rightly) betrayed if they come in the Church Worship Service where they would hear different music and where they see people clothed in modesty and a preacher that would not wear a Mickey Mouse T-shirt or show no tattoos. So what they do in general is, &quot;sanctifying&quot; those things, like change the lyrics of Hip-Hop, Heavy metal etc., have tattoos of Jesus and/or bible texts and we are good to go. The ones that would have at least some concerns about it are quieted being not to be &quot;narrow-minded&quot; or, in the worst case, are told that they make tradition an idolatry.<br /><br />I think it would be helpful for many who are confused about the development of cultural relevance in the church to do some research in contemporary Church History. You would be surprised that all &quot;worship wars&quot; find their origin in a movement that proudly called themselves New Evangelicals in the late 50&#39;s.<br /><br />Sjoerd de BoerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-11437777011542360102012-02-01T13:37:17.015-05:002012-02-01T13:37:17.015-05:00<i> Yea, we&#39;re on the same page. Another thought is how in my lifetime worship has become an entity. people say, &quot;The worship was great&quot; or &quot;That church has great worship!&quot; <br /></i><br /><br />Good observation--I&#39;ve noticed the same thing.<br /><br />DTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-78409724841482297892012-02-01T13:24:13.622-05:002012-02-01T13:24:13.622-05:00WWB,<br />We almost always track, so I don&#39;t doubt that we do here. ;-)<br /><br /> I&#39;m charismatic so I&#39;m a bit sensitive to the subject at hand, especially since I seem the odd man out. I believe charismatic worship practices can be out of hand and not in line with the word, but I also believe that they can be very much in line with the word and very pleasing to God. When God&#39;s people are in agreement together looking to God worshipfully, manifestations of the Holy Spirit seem to arise more readily. I believe the directives and descriptions of 1 Corinthians 14 paint the picture of what should happen in the normal Christian gathering. <br /><br />All that aside, as well as my peculiar sensibilities, I do very much appreciate the substance and tenor of your response to my comment. Our lives should be both--genuine &quot;worship&quot; and God-honoring living, rather than either and or.SLWhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04260137021205685080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-21021578436116847792012-02-01T13:20:28.017-05:002012-02-01T13:20:28.017-05:00Rick -&quot;He never indicated Martha was worshiping while doing dishes.&quot; He also never indicated she wasn&#39;t (although you&#39;re most likely correct). He simply stated that she was worried about many things. My observation is that worry and prayer are the same mental activity just with a different focus. And, to me, that is what Jesus was emphasizing. Martha needed to pick the better thing, which was to focus on Jesus rather than what Mary wasn&#39;t doing. <br /><br />However, I would disagree that worship can&#39;t be multitasked. Bezalel, in Exodus 31:2-3 was filled with the Spirit of God so that he could build the tabernacle. To me, that sounds like someone who worshiped God while he worked. <br /><br />Of course, I&#39;m putting my own spin on it. So I&#39;ll grant you the point about Martha if you grant me the point about Bezalel :-Pdrwaymanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17914024954991986479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-51626603127532767782012-02-01T13:07:06.323-05:002012-02-01T13:07:06.323-05:00Good discussion. I believe a Christ honoring life can authenticate your worship and exposes a worshipful heart.<br /><br />&quot;Alongside and with this phenomenon comes a downgrade of holiness in attire, speech, attitude and music styles of this world&quot;<br /><br />I believe those things are irrelevant. I have seen sloppily dressed people worship God in humility and brokenness while the suited man singing a hymn is full of pride. (And vice versa.) The exteriors are irrelevant. Man looks on the outside but God ponders the heart.Rick Fruehhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05879848568892457571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-41372675300849395102012-02-01T12:37:04.515-05:002012-02-01T12:37:04.515-05:00Sjoerd,<br /><br />Wow, what a great response! I can echo a hearty Amen! at these comments, brother. I was shaking my head in approval the entire time reading. God bless.William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-67785075611568227172012-02-01T12:34:38.077-05:002012-02-01T12:34:38.077-05:00SLW,<br /><br />I&#39;m wondering if you&#39;re accurately tracking with my thought of life being worship, then. Perhaps I wasn&#39;t as clear as I should have or could have been. <br /><br />If an individual claims to &quot;worship&quot; God on Sunday but lives his life contrary to how Scripture informs us a regenerate man or woman should or will live, then his &quot;worship&quot; is in vain. How one conducts his life, which is an overflow of what is in his heart, dictates the genuineness of his &quot;worship.&quot; Therefore, if one&#39;s life is wicked and apathetic, then one&#39;s worship is also wicked and apathetic. <br /><br />If one&#39;s life matches his obviously-regenerate nature, however, then his worship is genuine and God-honoring. I&#39;m connecting life to worship intentionally -- to show people that merely doing certain things during a song service on Sunday does not constitute worship; your life is worship to God -- how you live it before Him, the state of your heart, etc. Does that make more sense?William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-77327513550697599562012-02-01T12:27:40.903-05:002012-02-01T12:27:40.903-05:00Amen, to the first paragraph! As to the second, I get what he and Rick Warren are aiming for: worship is a disposition, whereby a person lives his life with integrity and righteousness before God; hence that person lives his life in worship -- his attitude is always one of worship -- including the washing of dishes or the scrubbing of floors. I&#39;m in agreement.William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5251119656678114714.post-31068641594806575162012-02-01T12:25:00.711-05:002012-02-01T12:25:00.711-05:00Oh, we are <em>definitely</em> on the same page!William Birchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09756456902262174536noreply@blogger.com